Do You Agree With Cloning

[Summerrain]

Someone Asked me to do a poll on cloning.

Do you agree with cloning:confused: Vote above.

[badbulls]

No

[Dodge]

NO

[RockinTRanch]

Not No, but Hell No !!!!

[Shrimp]

I have sold off parts (semen and calves) of most of the bulls that I started with because I needed to pay bills. I sure wish I had never sold a single straw of Avalanche. From the experiences I have had, and the cloning and IVF issues, I will not be selling anymore semen from my up and coming bulls without stipulations. These stipulations will be in writing and agreed upon before selling and will include that the straws will be used for AI or regular flushing no Cloning or IVF. This may drive down the price of the straws but, I think, will in the long run keep the value of the calves and the sire intact.

Last year in the Homestead Genetics sale several animals were sold that were noted as "cloning rights reserved." I realize that this means Homestead has the right to clone the animal. My question is, does the person who bought the animal also have cloning rights or does reserving cloning rights mean that cloning can only be done by Homestead?

[Onstad]

NO!!!!

[A Lazy J]

hmm, lemme think......:rolleyes:


NO

[Kris Wells]

NO!!!

[GRanch]

Absolutely Not!

[bucku]

not sure

[Leftlane]

Animals: Yes
People: No

[Dean_Rouse]

NO, Absolutly not. This in my opinion is trying to play God. Let God make them and put the buck in them the way he wants and according to his will, not mans.

[J-S]

My heart tells me no.But really whats the difference between it and ai ing,embryo tansfer etc.It all goes against the way god or nature intended(which ever you believe in ,Im not trying to get religious)I dont have a problem w/ those so how could I condemn cloning?Somebody set me strait if Im wrong.I probably just cant afford cloning.

[HGS]

NO!!!! HS

[richard]

NO

[gene001]

No!!!

[billsummers]

Coca-Cola once spent a fortune promoting and marketing NEW COKE.
The problem was they failed to find out if their consumers wanted it.
It was a monumental failure and we are back to the orignal product.
While we as small breeders really have no say, we are the consumers.
If this poll is accurate, there is about 10% of the market share having an interest in the product.
If in fact there are 200 clones in exisitence as was mentioned, the numbers don't work.
Any successful business can't be run by the clients, but it wont be successful long, if there are adversarial relationships and the needs of the clients aren't considered. That seems to be the feeling on here.

[patrickfisher]

I wish they would clone John Wayne or my third grade english teacher. lol.

Patrick Fisher
dpreproduction@hotmail.com

[J-S]

Thats very well thought out Bill,and alot more intelligent than I could come up with.I got a smart partner too.BUT,is'nt our consumer ultimately the PBR,PRCA,etc. not the ABBI.If only the big money can clone and it is said that the associations want to own all the top bulls themselves.Wouldnt that totally eliminate the little man. I'm not saying I believe that or a conspiracy theory but it would be a way for them to do it in the future.Just a thought.J.J.

[billsummers]

Consumer may not have been a good word. The ABBI is a supplier or vendor to the small breeder. We buy registration and opportunities to compete in their events. So the point I wanted to maike is this, while they don't include us in their voting, it is imperative that they acknowledge our needs as breeders, because I would think we as small breeders are their greatest source of revenue. That's just a basic business principle

[J-S]

Just wanted to make sure you could out smart me.Thats why I keep ya around.Kind of like Shannon.:)

[IdahoBullRider]

No it's a waste of time and money and I think...welll won't say what I think cause it'll make those that do it mad.

[BULLFAN]

I voted YES. But I wish the people with the clones would show enough self restrain to keep the calves out of the clone and not sale them. Sale the 2nd generation, but not the 1st generation. It cuts the legs off of other people when you do that.

They will figure out how to tell them apart sooner or later. The people that own those clones owe it to everybody involved in the sport of rodeo to hold onto the offspring until they can be distinguished.

And don't sale any semen until that can be distinguished also.

Don't let the chase for the all mighty dollar get in the way of being true to your customers.

I think that is a lesson that certain people haven't learned. Maybe thats how they got rich to begin with?:(

Excellent point!!

[Jason Miller]

I'm more than willing to tell anyone who buys offspring out of my clone, that she is a clone.

More than likely, like McGowan said, I will keep all my heifers or bulls out of her, unless someone wants to buy one. I will sell all second generation if I can. I wonder if folks would buy those? Any suggestions or opinions?

They wouldn't be clones...

[KEITH NABOURS]

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Macs_Hagen]

NO

[Macs_Hagen]

Think one minute about haveing something that is rare? And all of the sudden that rare thing turns into the next key chain you buy at the local store. That rare thing you HAD including everything and anything close to that rare thing there, now someone has just made that rare thing into (10) different choices of the same thing to choose from? Tell me how this ADVENTURE will help the business that everyone and anyone on here is trying to make a rate of return on the money they INVEST?

Thanks for the INFO
Mitch Parker

[Jason Miller]

Mitch, No one gauranteed people would make money in this ADVENTURE, clone or no clones to start with.

You also said the magic word: Money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Whether or not anyone admits it or not that is what this whole thing is about!

How you say is it gonna better our business?

Hopefully by raising top quality bucking bulls and females. No one has said anything about that! And thats what this business is about. Alot are in it for the money, NOT SAYING EVERYONE IS.

Most are trying to raise or find one good bull, I want to raise bullsssssssssss.

I know some say its a moral and ethical issue, like Mr. Wilfong and others, and thats good I respect that, but most I would say its because of money.
I don't know who they are but, no ones gonna admit to it though!

You say having something rare...... I never thought about this till today

For example 315 semen,

Is rare???? He11 no it isn't, everyone has some, right???????

BUT THESE CLONES WILL MAKE EVERYONES "ORIGINAL 315 SEMEN" WORTH
MORE!!! NOW YOU DO HAVE SOMETHING RARE. I WOULD THINK ITS WORTH MORE MONEY. SAYS THE SAME FOR OFFSPRING TOO.

Has anyone thought about that?

No ones said "I don't like clones because they might raise some bad azz buckers, WHICH THEY PROBABLY WONT BE ANY BETTER THAN ANY OF YOURS,
but I think some people think they will, NOT ME, and for that it means one more bull they might not be able to sale. And thats when it goes back to a MONEY issue, GREED. And to think were the ones greedy.

PLEASE READ!

I'm not talking about anyone in particular on this.

I think you folks do a heck of a job raising these bulls already and there ISN"T any room for improvement. I think we raise the best bulls anywhere.
I'm just trying to keep it that way, through my thoughts and opinions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Don Kish called me the other day and told me he cloned Cash and one of his cows, not because he believes in cloning, but to keep up with the industry.

I think he made a good point.


P.S.

Nabours, you probably wouldn't buy anything out of a plummer anyway, being they are White Parks!:D Just kidding

[Summerrain]

I think so many forget the other parts of the puzzle that makes a great bucking bull. The clones may look like the original and have the same dna, but that does not gurantee that they will be buckers or for that matter produce buckers. The original bull was raised differently, in a different environment, had a different dam, etc, all of these things play a role in how a bull will mature and influence his bucking ability. The bulls that are being cloned were great ones and had that " heart" that so many talk about to be so rank. So will the clones have that also, we dont know until they are older etc. Maybe , maybe not. But again we forget about the other influences on a bull that makes him what he is. Just my thoughts. :)

[Jason Miller]

Thanks Summerrain

Thats what I said in an early post, on another thread, What makes a bucking bull?

Genetics or environment?

No one knows if they will buck or produce buckers.

You are exactly right.

[HGS]

Facinating to me!!! As of today 675 members, only 126 have voted on SR's poll about cloning which is possibly a situation that could ruin this bucking bull business. HMMMM!!!! HS

[Hotflash]

Good point HS, only 19% vote. Reminds you how people vote in our national elections, and when they don't vote, they gripe the most, that things aren't like they want them.

[ronefx]

maybe they are apathetic, howard, kinda like i am towards the government elections. they are gonna do what they want so why bother to vote. even if 100% of the tbc members voted no , what difference does it make. i remember the president saying ' i heard you america and im gonna listen to you' only to keep doing the same thing he has been doing. in the ABBI we the people are the members but the lobbyists/congress is the shareholders/board.

[Summerrain]

I have to agree with Ron, it doesnt matter what the vote shows on here, the ABBI will do what they want to do regardless. I posted the poll per the request of a member who was curious of the results. Like Ron said, most probably dont bother voting because it doesnt matter. :)

[ronefx]

Hotflash, I did vote in the elections but i am conservative and have generally voted republican all my life , but now since the republicans are really no longer truely conservative , i dont have a party to vote for. i have learned a long time ago the saying "money makes the world go round" is true and it also makes "the proof is in the pudding" a valid statement, when talking about politicians.

[Jason Miller]

Every word ya'll say is true, JUST A THOUGHT, maybe there are not as many people that disagree with cloning than had thought. Maybe!

I think a lot have an open mind about it.

I think alot disagree only because someone else disagrees with it, and don't want to step on any toes.

[ronefx]

jason, i think like politics, you got middle of the road and unsure/dont know was left out of the choices. your cloned cow looks good and im glad she is healthy, as i hate to see any cow/bull in bad health or conditions. i have my beliefs and im not gonna preach to you. im sure yall see nothin wrong with cloning animals, and that dont make you sinner, bad person, or cause you to go to hell b/c you own a clone. everyone has convictions on whats right and wrong, just like i might do something and you say ole ron's a christian, i cant believe he does that, but i see nothin wrong with it. its all in your convictions. i am not God or Jesus and am not perfect nor am i better than anyone else. in my personal beliefs i see things wrong with cloning that maybe others don't see. i am not all that worried about the monetary/ devaluation loss , like some say will happen to the industry. i love the bucking bulls, i did not get in it for money, i will sell all my stuff at the sell barn if i have to and get what i can for them. i feel cloning is a sign of the times and is here to stay, but im not gonna have anything to do with it if i have a choice. i just have a variety of reasons that i see problems with and i am against cloning.

[HGS]

Ron, I'm that way also, but this stuff is closing to my heart. HS

[HGS]

Then they should vote. HS

[Jason Miller]

Thanks,

I agree with everything you said.

I think its the breeders choice, and should be left at that. Because the ABBI is gonna do it. Its up to us as breeders to make our own decisions.

[ronefx]

jason i typed you a response on pg 4 but pg 5 had already started so i dont know if you saw it.

[Jason Miller]

Yes Sir , I did.

[rockinwestcattleco]

The bottom line is that if the ABBI allows them to be registered it will give the whole buisness a black eye because crooked people will take advantage of it and people will get screwed. To think it won't happen is pure ignorance. to think that there are no crooked bull breeders that would screw people on this is the same as sayin all horse traders are honest. There are already guys out there screwing people on deals that are alot harder to hide than cloning. it happens every day. To think that they won't rail people on clone semen and offspring by passing it off as origanal when its as easy to do as it is is absolutly asinine. i guarantee that there will be people who spend hard earned money buying somthing claiming to be original only to find out later that it came from some junk clone. the only somewhat reasonable excuse to clone is to keep it within ones own program and to never sell semen, embryo's, or offspring but as was demonstrated in stephenville last weekend obviously that will not happen. Frauds have already been sold. i guess its time to start developing a list of who not to ever do buisness with.

[Canbuck]

Erik,

What you are saying will happen if the ABBI lets Clones be Reg,
makes no sense .... Everything you say will happen, can already happen & is going to keep happening for sure if they dont let them be reg.

Whats to stop a person from Reg a clone as a bull with no known parents right now ? Then the offspring would at least would be able to be reg, right ?

By not letting them reg the clones, I see way more shading deals in the works than if they let them Reg the clones & find a way to seperate the DNA on the two.

[Jason Miller]

Right on Derek.

Bad deals already happen.

Has nothing to do with cloning.

Like you said Derek, all that stuff is already happening. Its just an excuse.

They don't want them to be registered, but registering and determining the differences in clones and originals would only help figure out all this mess.

I'm totally lost here.

[Summerrain]

It said in the sale catalog from the Look West sale and I quote it as its written
" Offspring from these clones will be registered as Panhandle Slim offspring as AI conceived cattle."

How can they be registered as that if the clones live bred the cows?

[Jason Miller]

Forgot,

You are right Derek, none of it makes any sense at all:confused:

[j007]

I dont have a problem with cloning but then I also dont have any hi dollar bulls to worry about protecting my market with either.My take is I buy semen in the lines I want to breed from and the best I can afford and being a business if i can get the same line for a better price I will probably try it.Would I tell anyone interest in a calf I have that sire was a clone- you betcha in a heartbeat and dont think will make much difference to most folks in the long run if the calf performs and its a breeding they like.I dont really think its going to come to that though the market is already a little softer than it was last year and if prices keep coming down it wont be economically enough difference between originals and clones to make them worth the money it takes to produce a clone.Grab the cash while ya can dont think it will go all the way back to what they used to bring but gonna be alot closer than they are now--IMO.

[rockinwestcattleco]

Erik,

What you are saying will happen if the ABBI lets Clones be Reg,
makes no sense .... Everything you say will happen, can already happen & is going to keep happening for sure if they dont let them be reg.

Whats to stop a person from Reg a clone as a bull with no known parents right now ? Then the offspring would at least would be able to be reg, right ?

By not letting them reg the clones, I see way more shading deals in the works than if they let them Reg the clones & find a way to seperate the DNA on the two.

Yes you are right and if they can figure out a way to differentiate the clones from the original and the offspring then I would have no problem with it. but as it stands now maybe by not allowing registration maybe it would discourage people from cloning (doubtfull but maybe) The way it is now though as was mentioned earlier they (offspring) will be able to be registered as out of the original which is just flat dishonest and a lie. dispite what ones moral ethics are registering a calf from a clone as an offspring of the original is unethical no matter how you look at it because the bottom line is a clone is not the original period no matter what the DNA makeup is. It is crooked all the way around. Just like they advertised in the catalog for stephenville that they were going to add #315's spin and intensity into the calf. Well that is false info because there is no proof anywhere that these clones will posess any of the bucking qualities of #315. And as mentioned earlier regardless of what the ABBI decides to do there will be crooked deals that happen involving clones which is a prime example of why cloning should be stopped imedietely period. If you can't see the bad implications that could come from this you are either crazy or financialy invested in the cloning industry.

[Canbuck]

Too late !

There are a ton of clones already here & breeding.

There is no legal way to stop someone from cloning that I have heard of, but maybe. I dont see it as any different than Flushing, A.I ing, IVF etc, its all messing with mother nature. Who has the right to say where you draw the line ?

I would be 100% in favor of an "All Natural" bred registry & futurity / classic system that paid what it does now. Sign me up !!

[Phil Markoff]

I would never try to tell anyone what they can or can't do, but to me cloning a great bull or cow is about the same as buying a buckle.